The comments that I got on my article on smacking became too large for that coloum, so I have moved everything to under this post. None of the replies have been edited, and if 'someone' replies back to here, then I will paste them into this as a coloum.

someone Says:
July 20th, 2006 at 7:51 am

It is all well and good for you to say these things before you have had children. It is completely another story dealing with your own frustration over a ‘naughty child’. Okay so you have studied and no doubt looked after dozens of children, possibly even over night. But its no comparison to having one full time. You dont realise how much of your freedom they take away, how much of YOU. And its so hard to give so much then end up with a tantrum throwing toddler.
I’m not saying smacking is right and i agree with you about the after effects. It just seems that perhaps your opinion is a little biased, or perhaps uneducated is the right word.

Sproke :0) Says:
July 20th, 2006 at 6:20 pm e

Well I wouldn't say that my opinion is uneducated, because, to be frank, I am more educated in early childhood education than most adults/parents.  I think the word you were looking for is inexperienced. No, I am not a parent, and I said that at the start of this coloum for that particular reason. However, having worked with children for the past 6 years, in childcare centres, as a nanny, as a babysitter, and as an aunty of 6 neices/nephews (2 with ADHD and 2 with Autism) and yes, I have had my share of working with children on a 24-48 hour basis I dare say that my opinon is not inexperienced.  However, I do not say that my education is complete, nor will it ever be, because as a teacher, and as an educator, I am always reflecting and trying to improve on my teaching skills.

I do know how much effort children take out of you.  I do know that children take away your freedom.  But in the end YOU chose to have a child, and in making that decision, I dare say you would have been clued up that children are for life, not just for when you feel like having them around.  YOU chose to give away your freedom to them. I do know that it is hard to give when your child is having a tantrum.  I have delt with many a tantrum in my time, and dealing with many tantrums over a variety of children, I do know that the same skills do not work for all children.  Children are individuals, and it is up to the primary caregiver/s (whether this is parents, grandparents, or their teacheres or their afterschool carer) to talk together and work out what is the best possible way to deal with behaviour issues that come up.

What I was saying in this coloum, is that there is ALWAYS something behind the behaviour.  Whether this something is on the surface, and you can see it (ie they're tired and ready for bed) or it is something deeper down (ie, as in the boy I talk about that was on TV who had violent role models and was angry at his home situation).  And the same is true for tantrums.  I can gaurentee you that there is a reason why the child is having a tantrum, whether you can see it or it is something hidden within their minds.

From what I have observed, the main reason for a tantrum is the caregiver (and I will use this word so it applies to all of the people that have roles in the childs life) has said one of two things.  I explain the first example of a person saying "no, you cannot have that lolly".  Now this is a pretty common occurance, at the supermarket, at home.  One of the reasons that a child is throwing a tantrum at this is because they are testing the limits.  If they have thrown a tanty before and you've given into them, giving them the lolly just to shut them up and save face in public, then what you have done is taught them this: "If I throw a tanty for long enough, [cargiver] will give me what I want."  This will then extend out into other areas – not wanting to go to bed, not sitting down at the table to eat, and so on.  With this sort of tanty, not only is it the child testing the limits, but also it is the child coming to terms with the word "no", which can be very hard for a young child, espically if they are used to getting their own way.

The second one, is that the cargiver has disrupted their play without giving them warning.  Turn to your partner now, and without talking  to them and with no warning, lift up their arm to take off their jacket. How do they react? Does it feel nice? Do they ablige into letting you lift up their arm, or do they retract from you.  Now try this: while they are watching TV, without warning, and without talking to them, turn it off and tell them that they have to go to bed.  Don't worry about what time of the day it is, just do it.  How do they react with that?  The exact same reactions/feelings occur to a child when you do this to them. Btw, I am not suggesting that you do actually do this to your child, however a lot of people do without thinking about it.  The thing is that a lot of people don't realise is that children learn through play.  Their play IS their work, and disrupting them from that without warning (ie "in 5 mins I want you to come to the table to have dinner") causes them to fight back because they're telling you "actually, I'm not ready to come to dinner because I'm engrossed in something" (Btw, this is something that Supernanny does often, which is why, if you read through my other posts, I'm opposed to SN too). They key to handeling tantrums is to look deeper than the child just mis-behaving because they feel like it.  What are the messages you are sending to your child?  How are you rewarding, or discouraging this behavour?

Actually there is one other reason that I can think of that a child will have a tantrum, and that is, they are angry/upset about something that has happened (ie Mum has just gone out the door, and I really don't want to be left with Grandma at the moment).  This sort of tantrum is not actually a tantrum, but it is the child expressing their feelings about what has just happened.  The important thing with this is to say something along the lines of "I can see you are feeling upset (name the emotion). I know that it is hard for you when Mum has to leave.  How can I help you?"  It is important not to distract the child with a toy, or with TV (etc) but to validate their feelings, and let them experience what has just happened.  If you don't allow the child to go through those feelings and realise that, actually "I'm okay with Grandma" then this does not help their bonding/attacthment, because Grandma hasn't made them feel safe.

So the real trick that I have found with tantrums is that you have to be patient.  You have to give the child time to work through the feelings of frustration, anger, sadness, or just being pissed off because Mum's not giving me that lolly.  However, you do need to be there for them once they have finished crying/screaming/kicking etc.  Ask them questions (no matter what age) "How are you feeling now?" "do you want a hug now that you have calmed down?" (dont try give them a hug before they have calmed down, because it will be seen as a reward for having a tantrum, rather than a comfort when they have finished).  But above all stick to your guns, because the moment you give in, and give them what they want, then they thing "aha! I've got her". If you want to find out more I suggest going to your local libary and looking up Magda Gerber, or Emmi Pickler.  "Your Self Confident Baby…" is an excellent book that deals with things.

Remeber that crying is okay.  It is a way of a child expressing their feelings.  It is they way you handle that crying that makes the difference.

someone Says:
July 21st, 2006 at 6:25 p

I do think you are uneducated, or maybe a slight disability due to not having your own children. Being around them, studying them, caring for them intermittently is just not the same.
 
You can say now it is easy to control your temper but it is totally different when they are your own. A mother is bothered by the cry of her child, more so than anyone else around her.
 
Some children constantly test their limits. Okay so you have said no to a lolly and they throw their tantrum which can last up to half an hour. They have calmed down and five minutes later they are throwing a tantrum again because they do not want to eat any of their dinner. Another 30 minute tantrum. Then they are obviously tired so you try to convince them its time for bed. Another 30 minutes. And so it goes on and can do for weeks at a time. I do not know any mother who has not lost it at some stage. Some smack, some simply remove themselves from the situation until they are calm again.
 
"I can gaurentee you that there is a reason why the child is having a tantrum, whether you can see it or it is something hidden within their minds" – Yes but how is the mother supposed to know. Toddler may cry because he wants a biscuit and isnt getting one when mother doesnt even know he wants it. Where does that leave us.
 
So do you think the caregiver should just give the child a lolly and hence not tantrum and hence eradicate any chance of smacking.
 
Personally i think the child needs to know who is boss (and i dont mean by smacking them!) and they need the direction. And yes if it is childs bed time i think i would firmly tell them it was bed time and turn off the tv if this was the case. Where as any partner is old enough to decide their own bed time.
 
Just for pure amusement, im assuming you dont believe in colic either.

Sproke :0) Says:
22 July 2006 2.38pm

What do you mean by "for pure amusement I don't believe in colic"?  Do you think that the disregarding of colic is an academic viewpoint?  As it happens, I had incredibly bad colic when I was a baby, and I know how hard that was on my mother having to deal with a child who was constantly screaming, both who were sleep deprived, and had to deal with all those other nasty things that goes along with colic.

"Where as any partner is old enough to decide their own bed time."  – I think you have missed the point of this.  I was not implying that you run around your household barking orders at your family.  What I was trying to get you to do was an exercise think about was the reaction of what happens when a parent all of a sudden springs an 'order' on a child without giving them a warning (In 5mins it's time for bed).  What I was intending was that you do this on your partner and study his reaction. 

Sometimes it's easy for adults to forget that children are children, and not 'little adults' and that their brains physically need time to process something.  So a warning time is a really good way to let the child know something is about to happen that involves them.  It allows them to anticipate what's going on, and having been given the time to accept what is going to happen in their routine helps to eliminate a tantrum (which was what you were aiming at in the first place isn't it?).

"A mother is bothered by the cry of her child, more so than anyone else around her."  I know what you are saying by this.  It's called 'attachment', and evolution has designed this within us as humans to ensure the survival of children.  I have talked with many a parent on this, and I have to say, this does not occur just with a mother.  I too have felt the effects of a child that I am very close with crying for me when I am not in the room.

What I find quite disappointing about your debate is saying at the start of your replies is that you are telling me that just because I have not had children of my own, have not felt the pain and the pleasures of childbirth, that I have no right in saying what I have said.  That highly pisses me off, because not once have I said that a parent does not know their own child best.  Not once have I said that you as a parent are not in any position to comment on this because you do not have academic studies behind you.  What I have said is that sometimes parents do not always reflect, or perhaps that should be, do not know how to reflect on their own parenting skills so that they can be better parents and teachers for their children.  Just because I do not have a child around me 24/7/365 does not mean I don't know what I am talking about, and you have no right to discredit my opinion, just because (as it appears) what you believe is EC educators do not have a place in our society. I think what you don't fully understand, is that EC educators (myself included) do not "care for children intermittently" as you have put it.  We are there for the child through long hours of the day, often 7-9 hours of the day, 5 days a week, in which much of that time the child is awake, playing, and needs certain things to happen for them throughout their day – nappy changes, bottle feeding, solid food feeding etc etc.  We create very very strong bonds with the children we look after, not unlike those of a parent/child attachment, but certainly they do not ever replace the parent/child bond.  A child needs to have these secure attachments with someone in the centre, otherwise they will not be able to develop as a holistic child.  If a child does not have a secure bond with someone they know, they won’t want to eat.  They won’t want to explore what is going on in their environment, and they won’t want to learn.  If they are distressed, they won’t want anything except for their mother/father, whom they have developed these strong attachments with.

If a family decides to put a child into care, the people who work there become a huge part of that family’s life.  In most cases families see us as extended whanau, because a childcare centre is a home away from home.  We are not just babysitters, otherwise why would the Ministry of Education request that all teachers working in the early childhood sector be trained? 

”Some children constantly test their limits. Okay so you have said no to a lolly and they throw their tantrum which can last up to half an hour. They have calmed down and five minutes later they are throwing a tantrum again because they do not want to eat any of their dinner. Another 30 minute tantrum. Then they are obviously tired so you try to convince them its time for bed. Another 30 minutes. And so it goes on and can do for weeks at a time. I do not know any mother who has not lost it at some stage. Some smack, some simply remove themselves from the situation until they are calm again.”

If this is a reality with what is happening in your household, then I encourage you to search much, much deeper into what is causing the childs tantrums.  If this were a child in my centre, (and because I do not know the whole story I will treat this as if I were analysing this in class as apart of my studies) First of all, how old is the child?

I would then ask the parent what else is going on in the childs life?  Is the mother of the father away for work, or on holiday?  Have the parents had the child checked over by the doctor?  There may be something medically going on with them.  How are the childs routines? Are the consistent, or are they constantly changing?  How are these routines set? By the parent, or by the child?  Is the parent actually watching carefully for their cues to when the child is hungry?  If they child is throwing a tanty about not eating, then chances are they’re just not hungry, and they are upset at the parent for trying to force them to eat.  How big are the meals is the child being presented with?  If the meals are too big, then perhaps it’s off putting.  What has the child eaten during the day?  Have they had sufficient amount of fruit and veggies during the day?  What is their lunch meal like?  Are they having sandwiches or toast or something like that for lunch?  Would it be worth trying them on leftovers from the night before (ie, save some of parents dinner and re-heat it for lunch) that way you know they’re getting their veggies during the day, and perhaps having sandwiches or something else pretty light for dinner.  What is the dinner food? Is it out of a can, or are you cooking it up fresh?

What I am getting at with this, is that there are many other things to look at beside the child.  The child exists not just as apart of their mother and father, but also as apart of the environment they are in (the home, the childcare centre, the park, the supermarket etc etc) and also, the people and animals (etc) with whom the child encounters in their day-to-day living.  They are apart of their routines, and their own beliefs and values, and what an adult does with them in every second of the day and night shapes that child, and children react to that through their behaviour.

To give you an example; a child, 7-9months old.  All of a sudden the child is having a hard time going to bed.  When I mean having a hard time, I mean she throws a tantrum (or rather gets incredibly upset) when one of us (usually her primary caregiver in the centre) says ‘in 5 mins we’re going to change your nappy, get Ivan (cuddly doll) and go to bed’.  Now we told her so that she is anticipating the routine, and it doesn’t come as a shock to her, but she gets really upset at the thought of going to bed.  So we talk with her lots about bed when we’re going for a nappy change, she’s crying the whole time; she doesn’t want her nappy changed because she knows that the next step is going to bed.  We get her into bed, she’s still crying, and it takes her over an hour for her to go to sleep, and even while she’s asleep, she’s sobbing.  This happens for weeks, and months.  We talk with the parents, but they don’t tell us anything different apart from “she does that at home too”.  So now you have a think.  Is this child just having a tantrum because she’s not ready for bed (despite her eyeballs hanging out)? She doesn’t like sleeping in that cot? She doesn’t like sleeping at the centre?  Maybe she prefers a different way to be put to sleep than we’re doing it in the centre?  Maybe she doesn’t want to miss out on what’s going on with the children who are awake? Maybe there’s something going on with her routine – she might be changing it slightly.  Maybe it’s something medical?  There are so so so many different possibilities that could have been happening that meant she didn’t like sleeping anymore.  What we eventually found out was that her parents were in the throws of splitting up, and they would have their arguments for when the children at gone to bed.  In her sleep she was hearing the two people she loved the most in her entire life, fighting.  Though it didn’t happen every night, or even didn’t happen during her day sleeps when she was at home, this happening over time caused her to come to her own conclusion that “if I sleep, my parents fight, so if I don’t go to sleep, then they won’t fight”.  So it didn’t matter that she wasn’t in the room when all this was going on, and that both of her parents played ‘happy couples’ with her when she was awake, there was still something incredibly deep and unseen that took us months to work out that was causing her to be like this.

“Yes but how is the mother supposed to know. Toddler may cry because h wants a biscuit and isn’t getting one when mother doesn’t even know he wants it.”  If your child is doing this, then I would ask why is the child not asking?  All children, not matter what age, can make what they want very clear.  I think that if the mother does not know that the child is crying because they wanted a biscuit, then the mother is not reading the childs cues properly.

“So do you think the caregiver should just give the child a lolly and hence not tantrum and hence eradicate any chance of smacking.” 
No I do not think this.  I think it is important for a child to have a tantrum.  I think that is where yours and my priorities change.  As I said in my previous post, a child having a tantrum is one of two things, both testing the limits, and learning how to cope with the answer ‘no’.  The thing to remember is that a tantrum is a learned behaviour.  That is, if a child does it once, and the caregiver gives in, the child has learned “If I do that, then I get my own way”.  Of course children will do it more than once, but the key is to be patient, and consistent.  I am fully aware that it is easier said than done.  As I said, I have sat through many a tantrum, to the point when both the child and I have been exhausted.  But it is important to sit with them (if in public) and ensure that they are safe while they are flinging their body around.  A big part of a tantrum is “I’ angry at you for saying no” but usually at some point it changes to “I am really really trying my hardest, give me some bloody attention!”.  It is important not to give the child attention (eye contact) while they are doing it, or they will carry on doing it, because they know how to play you.  They know how to tug at your heart strings so you will pick them up, and say “shh, it’s okay, I’m here” (or something to that effect).  Giving a child a smack is another way for them to get attention.  And in most situations, giving a smack doesn’t work anyway, because then the child will start crying harder because you’ve just hurt their body.

I do agree with you when you say that a child needs to know who is boss.  However, if children are taught to follow ‘orders’ without question then we will end up with a society of people who cannot think for themselves, and problem-solve through difficult situations.  Yes parents are their ‘boss’ and their carers, and who, in more cases than not, spend the most amount of time with their children.  But parents are much more than their protectors.  They are the children's prime decision makers, they decide when the child should have a bath, and for how long.  They decide what the children should be eating.  But they are also their teachers.  It is the parents job to decide how they want their children to grow up, and it is the parents who need to teach their children skills for life.  Parents also need to be reflective teachers, and it is important for them to thing “I disciplined Johnny in this way.  What did I teach him through this? What will he learn from that? Was it the best way I could have done that?”.  But more than parenting, a child learns in a community, they learn in their community of parents, grandparents, extended family, pre-school friends, and next-door neighbours.  And most of all, parenting does not have to be done alone.  It’s okay to ask your neighbour for help.  It’s okay to ask your child’s teacher for their take on it.  Chances are the teacher will have an article for you that you can read and reflect on, and decide whether you want to put the messages from that article into your parenting tool-kit or not.  Yes looking after children, is hard no matter how you do it.