By: someone

someone — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 08:34:06 +0000

In my experience it seems a lot of academics do think colic isnt real. That its just because baby isnt settled right/properly. You said yourself if a child is upset/throwing a tantrum then its always for a reason. My daughter suffered from colic for months and it was very real, as i guess your mother knows.

"What I was intending was that you do this on your partner and study his reaction." – I dont think i missed the point. I see what you mean with the partner thing but in reality most partners arent used to taking orders, whereas the child needs the direction.

I see what you mean about giving the warning and dont dispute it. Thinking about it i do that but never really thought about it. This being said my daughter sometimes asks to go to bed. And before you start asking about routine and diet and whats she running from, its because i read her books in bed.

"I too have felt the effects of a child that I am very close with crying for me when I am not in the room." – just out of curiosity do you think these "effects" are the same as if it were your own child. Im not at all patronising, just curious.

"not once have I said that a parent does not know their own child best" – Not once have you said that they DO either. I understand you have academics behind you but i still dont think you really UNDERSTAND whats its like to be a parent, or a frustrated one at that. I do see its easy for you to look in from the outside and say what should be done and how. It is harder when you are a parent to look at your parenting and reflect and perhaps you are right and some just dont know how to. I’m not saying at all that you dont know what you are talking about, you certainly have more academic education than myself on such topics.

Im not trying to discredit your opionion, only questioning it. I certainly understand that Early Childhood Teachers have their place in our society. If i didnt think they did then my daughter wouldnt go to pre-school 5 days a week. I do think though, that any ECT that does not have children is only caring for children intermittently. I dont dispute that they/you work long hours, have to feed them and change nappies. But do you ever get a sleep in? Have you have had 15 months of broken sleep due to breastfeeding? Every night when you are cooking dinner do you have a toddler under your feet asking for things? Do you miss out on outings with friends because you cannot find a baby sitter? Do you scrimp by because a large chunk of your paycheck goes on child care costs? These are all factors of looking after a child full time, or non-intemittently. And all of these can wear someone down and add to someones frustration. Such frustration that i personally dont believe you can feel or understand unless you have done that and been there, which i dont believe you have.

"We create very very strong bonds with the children we look after, not unlike those of a parent/child attachment, but certainly they do not ever replace the parent/child bond. A child needs to have these secure attachments with someone in the centre, otherwise they will not be able to develop as a holistic child. If a child does not have a secure bond with someone they know, they won’t want to eat. They won’t want to explore what is going on in their environment, and they won’t want to learn. If they are distressed, they won’t want anything except for their mother/father, whom they have developed these strong attachments with." – I am not disputing any of this and i agree with you. But this does not mean you can understand how one can be so frustrated that hitting your child seems like the right thing to do, or the only thing to do.

"If this is a reality with what is happening in your household, then I encourage you to search much, much deeper into what is causing the childs tantrums." – I slightly exaggerated. But such nights have been known to happen in this house and not necessarily as an isolated incident. I feel offended at your list of questions as to why the tantrums occured. Child in question is 3. Doctor says she is fine and these tantrums are normal. Her diet is fine. Her routine is almost set in concrete and anything that is going to change she knows about in advance (ie if someone different is picking her up from pre school that day). Her meals are always cooked fresh aside from the odd treat (commonly tinned peaches for a snack). Dont think these things didnt go through my mind when the tantrums started. I got laughed at for being worried about the tantrums and frequencies of them.

You make it sound like a child will test a certain limit once then leave it having learnt where it is. Despite clear messages some toddlers try to push it again and again. I KNOW my toddler isnt the only one to do this. Sometimes we can go weeks with no tantrums, then all of a sudden we will get a few days like the ones i described before. Nothing has changed, its just her re-testing those limits.

"I would ask why is the child not asking? All children, not matter what age, can make what they want very clear." – I strongly disagree with that statement. Have you never held a baby thats crying and not known what the matter was? Infact colic is a great example. Child is crying but is too young to communicate what the problem is, infact does baby even KNOW what the problem is? What about an 18 month old for example. Maybe speech isnt advanced enough to communicate that way. What other ways are there? Gesturing. WHat would they gesture at? The pantry, a packet of biscuits, someone else eating one? What if none of these are in sight. They can gesture at their mouth but then how does one know what it is they WANT to eat? This hasnt happened to me that i can recall but was just an example.

I understand completely that tantrums are healthy and i would worry if she had never had one. Its the frustration that comes from many of them at the "wrong" time that gets to me. Its easy to say be patient and ignore them. There is nowhere in this house i can go where i cannot hear her. And thats the biggest thing for me. Its not that shes upset or flinging herself around, its hearing her CRY. Maybe its due to the colic. Or the fact its what i used to wake up to 5 times a night to breastfeed. But its the crying the rips me apart. First i feel sorry for her, then i get annoyed, then it turns to anger and frustration. I think its similar for a lot of mothers and if i were going to smack then this would be when.

Im not sure if it was you or one of the other commenters that said "theres a difference between smacking and beating" or something along those lines. But thats so true. And i think the big different is control. I will admit to smacking my daughter. But understand its never hard enough to hurt her and its controlled. I dont smack in the situation outlined above. Infact the way i smack is more psychological than physical. She knows its the ultimate naughty if she gets her "smack" (a pat on the bottom). She gets warned. Then i tell her if she doesnt do x then she will get a smacked bottom. I start counting and if i get to five she gets the pat on the bottom. I do think thats acceptable, similar to what the other commenter said. Smacking to cause pain or out of a mothers/fathers/caregivers frustration is not.

I never said to command children to do things without reason. Im not a drill sergeant

If you want to know who i am then ask and i will tell you. I commented anonymously because i was afraid my identity would make your own comments biased, or change the way you read mine.

By: PandorA

PandorA — Sun, 23 Jul 2006 23:06:57 +0000

i got told about this post by a third party and i would just like to let sproke know that "someone" is not me, just incase she thought it was.
after reading the posts and comment i do believe that you both have valid comments. and i agree with giving your child a light "smack" on the hand after warning them what they are doing is wrong, if they continue doing something wrong.. i am one of these ppl that remove themselves from the situation if my son is getting too much for me to handle, and a great believer in "time out" for the child as well.
i do think that sprokes inital post with the response to john campbell programme is great, and i do hope that they read alteast some of it out on the show.

By: whiteliez

whiteliez — Sat, 22 Jul 2006 04:26:02 +0000

posting here just in case last one didn’t work interesting. personally i think there is a big difference betweeen smacking and beating your child. and smacking is not something i object to – under the right circumstances.. the anon post above criticises smacking and claims that without having your own kids it is not fair to say how easy (or not) it is for an adult to not keep their own temper: "I do not know any mother who has not lost it at some stage. Some smack, some simply remove themselves from the situation until they are calm again." smacking a child because YOU can’t cope is clearly not a productive technique – all that teaches a child is that when you lose control violence is okay. i once smacked my ex’s daughter at age 4.. she didn’t want to eat her breakfast so she took her peanut butter toast, put it upside down on the carpet under the table and stomped on it to hide it. i smacked her hand (called it a smack but it was the lightest tap) and explained that she was being smacked because she had lied (about eating her breakfast) and she had delibrately hidden the food rather than telling the truth. she cried for a minute (more because she knew what she did was wrong and she knew she shouldn’t have done it), got a cuddle, and went on her way. by the way, she never lied to me again. but i was calm, explained the what and why and would never smack a child because my patience was getting thin.

Comments on: Re: smacking

By: someone

By: PandorA

By: whiteliez